Wake up time people

[piddle]

OK First I want to apologize to everybody that had the unfortunate privilege to be in vent when I was yelling and using free form profanity.. you did not deserve that well most of you didn't. I Have left the guild so I will not be repeating that.

I was there when this guild was formed in UO we based this place on helping out others to have fun and grow. We have grown we have evolved and I am not happy what we are now.

I am sick and tired of sitting in vent and listening to Officers bash guild members. I am Sick and Tired of Raid Leaders forgetting who is in the raid they are Running. Come on there should be no reason at all for the raid to remind the leader that so and so is not the ONLY Plate Tank. I am getting sick of a Casual raiding guild that has a raid listed every day of the week. I am sick of People who have no idea how another class is played saying that the other class is not geared for so and so.

Regular members are one thing. It is the officers job to stop that crap quick and have it dropped to Private channels if there is a problem. I personally have stopped it from happening in the Guild chat and in vent but it is not the regular members doing it is the officers so what do we tell the other members hey it is ok to say "boy Joe can't heal" or "Frank is a loot whore" in guild chat? what about in the main vent room? Well if the Officers can do it why cant everyone?

Anyway it is time to wake up folks start living by the teachings our parents tried to install into us.. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you... simple and easy to follow anyway

in closing hope you all have a good life I will be hunting for a new home and maybe this time I can find a place where we help out not just criticize players and talk about people in an open forum where it shows bad on the leaders and the guild in general.

Piddle

[laileb]

While I obviously don't know what happened since I am no longer here, I just want to say good luck man.

[taallonn]

Hate to see you go dude

[zuggy]

I can understand you being upset at the way things are going and yes sometimes people say things they shouldn't. What i fail to understand is why people are pissed about raids being scheduled every night. Yes we are a casual raiding guild. If you don't want to raid then don't sign up for them. If you want to do a raid then start one at a different time and see who all wants to go. I don't see how getting angry over going on raids to often or not often enough has anything to do with enjoying YOUR character on this GAME! I've found that over 95% of the game is done out of raids. I find it so ironic that so many people bitch and complain over this little aspect of the game. I'm not here to raid 24/7 I'm here to play with friends/family and have a good time. If you aren't having a good time then by all means you have the right to do whatever it is necessary to make your time here worth it.

What I also don't like is you saying we have evolved into something you don't like. What does that tell all the new members. In my opinion it says you liked it better when they weren't here. I think that's just crap. I joined SWP back when i started playing SWG. I enjoyed doing everything and have many many great friends still because of the fun times we had doing things together back then and are still together now. I play to hang out with people and if we get some raiding in and feel like we accomplished something then I say job well done today. I would like to know what it is we have evolved to that you don't like.

You say that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.......well leaving and bitching doesn't accomplish anything and the remark about maybe this time I can find a place where we help out not just criticize people was not the nicest way to say your parting words.


Biack

[piddle]

We have evolved into a guild where you can log into vent and hear officers bashing other players.. we have evolved into a group that even if people ask for help they get ignored and no not on quests but on how to improve their class and character with gear and all..

We have evolved into a group that once you get all you need out of an instance we stop running it. Trust me if Daily heroics did not drop triumph badges and if normal did not drop conquest we would not be doing them even though our lowbies could use the gear. I see alot of what is in it for me around lately and people are showing it in guild chat and in vent lately that is what I am sick of and one of the reasons I left. Raid 24/7 it dont matter to me but the title is stretched as a casual group. SWP is a Raiding guild just not good enough to field 25 man runs so we settle for 2 x 10 runs instead cant find another 5 players geared enough to take that step to 25.

As I said I am not happy with what it has evolved to that is my opinion and it is not wrong. I was one of the first to sign the charter in UO I remember nights sitting around the guild hall helping members to gain skills. I remember the so called raids since UO did not actually call them that on places we had no business being on. I remember taking pups on Treasure hunts for the experience. It did not matter if we wiped 20 times on it we always went back for more..

I see the progression group widening the gap between them and the next group which means the second group will not get the beast geared or better players so they will not progress as far that means the third group will have an even more of a gap in the end you will have multiple groups instead of a single guild.

I maybe wrong but I am seeing it already so yes I pulled my 80's out of the guild and my little shaman to take a break from it all now I do not have to raid or feel like I have to anymore was an easy fix. I also do not really have an officer title anymore so now I wont get lumped in with the others that bash and trash in public forums on other members.

I do hope now you have a clearer insight into my original post if not well find me in game or in the STonline channel and I will try better to explain

[taallonn]

Where to start? I guess by addressing the whole raid issue.
Your blaming people for conforming to Blizzards game design. Blizzard has shifted this game from a casual game, to a raid based game, I know because I have issues with it as well. Heroics are, boring, plain and simple and not a challenge at all. Blizzards grand design is to have people do the same content over and over, this is why they have put so much emphasis on arena and hard modes, it cost next to nothing to design (the maps and encounters are the same) and only takes a few tweaks to make it harder and give people the illusion that they have accomplished something. Leveling an alt? boring after 8 or 9. Rep grind? Boring after an hour. Instances? Boring after running them til your blue in the face, but what else are you gonna do to kill time.
Helping someone that asks for help? Not boring at all but 9 out of 10 times the person that asks doesn’t bother to check if there’s a tank on, a healer on, or if most the people on are in an instance, so then they think they aren’t getting any attention. Looking at the guild list makes asking questions like that a little easier to deal with when you can see for yourself if people are in the middle of stuff, afk, in an instance, or maybe in pvp.
Progression group. Ok we have a group that’s going through content, wiping for hours with little to no advancement as the encounter is learned and somehow those 2 hour wipe fests are getting them far ahead of everyone else gear wise….. Sorry dude, I just don’t see that the same way you do. What I do see is some players that are able to learn from mistakes, and multitask in a run able to get through it faster, and quicker than some others have been able to do. Does it mean that people that want to see it won’t? No not at all. 1 saved instance being done once a week, or every 2 weeks to actually learn the encounter allows for other runs to be done and gotten to the same point in that instance, or close to it while allowing those not in the progression run to be gearing up.

Player Bashing. This is the one I have the hardest time understanding, as this actually goes hand in hand with raiding (which if you recall is Blizzards grand design for this game now). Are we not supposed to see if someone is suited to be in an instance? Well if raiding is based on class knowledge, skill, and gear (again, this is how Blizzard has evolved their game), then how are the raid leaders supposed to determine if someone will be able to do the raid? Take my lv 80 warlock, would he be able to go to Uludar, or ToC? No not at all. He isn’t geared for it. I don’t need someone to tell me he isn’t, I know because I see past the epix that blizzard dangles in front of everyone to make them lust after content. He doesn’t have the gear to be an asset to the raid, he will do terrible dps comparatively, he will suck up heals needed for the tanks or people actually making a difference in the fight…all in all for me being an intelligent player, I would be stupid as hell to suggest that I take him in there knowing he isn’t geared for it. I don’t want my characters walked through like a baby in a stroller, damnit I want to earn that kill. But apparently some don’t see things like that and can’t get over the fact that they need to spend time learning their class, and time in lesser raids to learn to play their class. No matter how much gear you have, if you can’t play your class then your going to be carried through content……and before anyone gets pissed at that statement, it’s not me that designed the game this way. It’s Blizzard, so don’t get pissed at those discussing who is able to do the content, take it up with lead designer at Blizzard for making this casual game into something it was never designed to be in the first place.

[piddle]

no snap the bashing does not go hand in hand. You know what I am talking about. but yes lets discuss the raiding aspect while we are at it.

One week Joe is good enough to go to the raid but the following week he is not geared for it? make the line then do not tell them that they can go just cause you need to the spot then later tell them they are not geared enough.

The Bashing is repeatedly saying that so and so cant play their class where as it maybe the truth at that time there is no reason that I can think of why this has to be repeated over and over in the main vent chan or over guild chat in game.. don't think they can play the class well just boot them then why sit there and make a mockery of them day in and day out? Yes I did it as well but realized my error.

Personally the thing that opened my own eyes was the night in 25 flame I won the tanking bracer and was made to feel like I should have just not rolled on it no matter HOW many times I was told I didnt have real tanking gear.. Yet it was good enough to offtank Uldar when there was no other choices. you did note I stopped signing up as him in fact if D was on time he would not have been there even.

Is it fair? dunno you guys should just place the ten you want on the run on the calendar then you run it if you have the people and if not oh well. If you do not think some one is not geared enough do not invite them simple but inviting them one week then next week making fun of them in guild the next is wrong.

Also I would suggest making sure before telling someone they are not geared enough before telling them that I know of a few cases when the comment was wrong and all you are going to do is hurt peoples feelings even more until there will not be any raids. Just tick off one or two healers and see what I mean.. anyway you know where to find me

[taallonn]

Well, I didn't know about someone being told they were geared one week and not the next til it was mentioned last night.

Hell I sat there and tried tanking ToC on snap, knowing she wasn't geared (I even stated in vent that night that I had reservations about me taking her to tank), but hoping she was geared enough to hopefully get through so that there could be a run that night. Didn't work, and I didn't go back in there on her to tank until I got a few badge upgrades. Did i bitch about her being in there one night and not the next cause she wasn't geared? No, i was man enough to admit my characters shortcomings in that gear and not sign up on her to tank, or dps for that matter cause i knew her dps was too low as a boomkin. Why? because i wanted my guildies to succeed, with or without me because it's important to them.

On occasion someone under geared can be carried by the raid on easy bosses, sometimes not. It all depends on the encounter and group makeup. If you check be.imba, or wow-heroes, you also notice that pretty much everyone has a gear score that places them 1/2 way through an instance. Each instance bosses get progressively harder, which means also that someone that may be geared for deconstructor, may not be geared for mimron. That's why blizzard has achievments for each wing, it's just like Naxx. We had dps for spider at first, but couldnt even take down a gargoyle in plague, that meant we weren't geared for that wing.

So as far as someone being geared for the first couple bosses in an instance, yes it is possible that on night 1 when 5 bosses are taken down that 1 or 2 people may not be geared for the next boss. you can usually tell this when the raid takes on a farm boss and stops dead in it's tracks and wipes 8 times. means something's wrong, could be tanks, could be heals, could be dps. So the next night you make 1 or 2 changes and boom...boss down, and the next 3....I mean, there has to be an issue somewhere there..... I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just saying it is possible to get through part of a raid, and not be geared to take on the last boss. i used to see it all the time in 40 man raids, thats why you farmed the shit week in and week out, to get 40 people geared to take out 1 dude

[taallonn]

oh, just wanted to add. I am not trying to argue here, I am just trying to elaborate some on how I see things....trying to be objective, but i know some may not see it that way

[piddle]

I know snap..

Thing is the one instance is a player that was on that great one shot run we had in uldar all the way til mimron then next week was told he was not geared enough to go ..

Not by his class leader

Not by a raid leader

but by someone else

I just will hate seeing one 10 man group filled with the best and the second one that may run now and then due to all of the healers being saved already

the guild needs more players to start shooting for the 25 man runs then you can drag a few lower geared along SWP has 118 level 80's even with those numbers you are saying that we can not fill a 25 man so we have to settle for 20 players I guess that tells the other 98 (and yes there are some alts in there) that they are not good enough??

How many times have you seen the runs we held for naxx and such and instead of the best geared helping the lower ones run through it alts get taken in and then rolling against the mains that are trying to get geared?

Yes Zeq is/was my main yet we were so dang melee heavy and tank heavy lately I was bringing piddle for the ranged DPS for the good of the guild and run so I know what you are talking about.

I just got tired of the " you are not good enough" "we are not good enough" talk in Vent where everyone could hear heck why not start just typing it in the guild chat "XXXX sucks we are not taking him" that way everyone will know. just set your calendered events to the 10-13 people you want to take and save the other 105 80's from reading the invites.

Or making promises that they can go next time and forgetting the promises were made.

[deli]

Ok, gonna interject my 2 cents worth here, altho I said my piece in the guild meeting. First off, organizing the raids.... seems pretty simple to some extent. We have a calendar. If you want to go, sign up. If you don't want to go, don't sign up. HOWEVER, our raid leaders are intelligent people and have done their homework to see what kinds of classes are needed for each run. They take into consideration which bosses we'll be facing, who is not only geared and experienced and knows how to play their toon, but also how well do they interact (and I'm talking combination personality-wise as well as the interaction of class specifics) with each other. I've said it before and I'll say it again.... you get a group of people together and I don't care if its 3 people, 5 people, 10 people or 25 people, but you get basically that same group together and pretty soon they're able to work together like a well-oiled machine. So, bottom line.... signups are NOT a guarantee of going! They give the raid leaders a list to be able to look over and figure out how to form a viable group. And if you don't like the way they form those groups, then do it yourself. Nothing saying anyone can't create runs on that calendar. If there's a "select group" for progression raids, I sure haven't seen it. Instead, I've seen the officers bend over backwards to try to make sure those that can, get into those progressions. Keep in mind something, those people working their asses off, (and yes, wiping repeatedly, spending mucha gold for repairs, getting frustrated until they're ready to scream, etc.) those people are also the ones who are turning around and holding out those helping hands to others as well, even if its on an alt. They're giving information. They're helping to teach about the bosses or raids or runs. They're utlizing the things they've learned so you don't have to bust your ass the way they did. But if you'd prefer to do just that, bust your ass, then be ready, in every aspect. We have raid leaders, either you trust them or you don't, your choice. And if you don't, then you'd better start leading raids yourself. I for one have total faith in the people I run with. If I didn't, I wouldn't be there.

I don't give a crap about boohoo Blizz is changing things for this that or the other thing. Not a friggin thing we can do about that, so we deal with what we're given, period.

We each pay our $15.00 a month to play whichever toons we wish to play, however we want to play them. If you choose to play a toon that maybe isn't ready to run a particular run, then that's your choice, isn't it? And if that toon isn't ready because of gear or inexperience, then its YOUR responsibility to see that it gets there. Its not the guild's responsibility to do that. Yes, we help each other a lot! But the bottom line is nobody is obligated to help you if they just don't feel like it.

Personality clashes, yup they're gonna be there. Its called human nature, welcome to reality. "Don't have to like each other, but you do have to respect each other." Well, yes and no. I will respect someone's rights. But they'll need to earn my respect on a personal level. And there are a LOT of people in this guild who've done just that, which is one of the main reasons I'm here.

As far as "bashing" someone in gchat or on vent, well yeah, not a nice human trait but again, its pretty much a normal human trait. God knows I'm guilty of it myself but I do agree that it shouldn't be right out there in the middle of everything with big arrows pointing at it saying "Wow! Look at what I'm saying about this person!" Keep it private. By the same token, be adult enough to speak up too! If you hear someone saying something about somebody and you don't want to listen to it, for heaven's sake stand up for yourself and say something!! People will shut up for the most part.

I've been in "casual guilds." I've been in "raiding guilds." Only reason I've been in guilds (plural) is because things change. Guilds breakup and die at times. This is the first guild I've been in where I've felt at home instantly. We have good people here, a lot of them. And I really hate to see some of those good people leave this guild because of the drama created by a few. I've come close to leaving myself, but I won't. Not yet anyway, if ever. I fight for what I believe in, and I believe in this guild. I can't change people, nor should anyone ever attempt to change someone else. There is nothing saying "I'm right and you're wrong." nor vice versa. Instead, what I'd like to see, is people stepping up, taking responsibility for themselves. We all make mistakes. Its when we make them repeatedly and don't learn from them that its a problem, for us and for those around us.

I'm home. And this is my family.

[piddle]

Deli thing is why is joe able to go one week to say uldar fresh run

then next fresh run he is not geared enough?

This is what I was seeing and no they were not told by the leader that but by someone else hell just come out and say well you are not geared enough but we will take you anyway cause you are the only option but do not expect to go if someone else signs up

Or Hey you are not geared for it but then again I have no idea what geared is for your class but I do not want you to go along so I will just say you are not geared

Who sets the gear rating anyway for certain raids what is the min score for say uldar? is the gear rating different for range dps over say healing? which goes the 2383 wow hero score or the 2468 score for range dps? does someone who wasnt there one week have the right to tell another player they are not geared? with out even seeing that toon in action?

I was told one time Piddle was not geared enough to run Naxx went out dual specced destro and guess what I was suddenly geared enough didnt change my gear at all just specced from DoT to burst dmg. We look at the end line and most of the time we have not one clue on how the class we are talking about is supposed to be played.

The only people telling other players they are not geared is the class leaders and then only after they run a few times with player.

I could not sit here and tell you how to spec your healer I have no idea if you are geared enough to run x or should be running y there are benchmarks that are used yes I know but my 3k dps turns to 5k in certain fights are you suggesting we regroup after each and every fight? possible with 110+ 80's but not very pratical.

Speaking again on Lock damage which I do know a little bit about Affliction is better in a move heavy fight instant cast dots that can be thrown on the run compared with destro where you have to plant for 2 seconds at least on most of your rotation allowing chances for interuptions which bite into your dps for that fight.

So what DPS benchmark is SWP using is it a fight like Patchwerk or something like Hiegan? Heck lets use the brewfest boss that one fight I was at 8k

All I am saying is if you have no idea how a certain class is played then do not make comments on geared or not for a certain instance one you have no clue and two you may hurt feelings specially in open vent or chat heck Deli I remember not to long ago someone making the comment you couldn't heal a certain instance and in open vent did that make you feel like you were wanted?

anyway back to the game

[therat]

piddles argument as i view it: there appears to be some high school style "clicks" that may make others feel unwanted. Also stated and what appears to be confirmed is that some of the players are "bashing" other players due to skill in play.


Is this correct or am i reading this wrong?

[laileb]

It comes down to the fact that people have different expectations in the game. As the game is getting more and more watered down by blizzard the decisions Doric and the other raid leaders need to make will get easier and easier. They are moving away from encounters requiring specific classes and creating a great deal of redundancy. As for right now I have to agree with snap's post the game isn't "balanced" to the point you can just bring in any mix of people.

Since most DPS classes have clone abilities from other classes now DPS should be comparable. After studying the meters and theory crafting for the past 4 years or so I have come to the conclusion that most classes should be comparable in damage. to throw an arbitrary number out there I would expect most people to average 3k or higher after doing heroics for a week or 2 and that is counting in all the fights that don't work for some classes. keep in mind even with all the balancing there will be some classes that are a bit ahead of others.

As far as people needing help learning their classes all the information you could ever need is literally one click away. In fact there is so much information on WoW if you were to google anything something about WoW is probably in the results list. Good sites are elitist jerks, warlocks den, well theres no need to list them all because like I said they are just one click away.

You can spend 10 hours a day helping people but chances are they won't be much better off than they were before you helped them. How does that old saying go? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink? To put it another way will you learn anything about your class if you just copy some spec link? Learn your class mechanics and I bet you'll get something pretty darn close to that spec some guy/girl posted on the net.

I understand that you get certain groups of people sticking together, that isn't because other people aren't good enough, that's because some people get along better with others. Also if some people can't find groups My suggestion is to follow the example of several of our guildies and roll a healer or tank. That is generally what groups lack.

To anyone struggling I suggest you look up the numbers and formulas and do a bit of your own theory crafting because if you take a "cookie cutter spec" and then do something other than what the spec is optimized for it's going to hurt your performance.figure out what you like to do and crunch the numbers and find a spec that fits.

Now as far as talking about people I can understand that you got upset Piddle, Unfortunately I was also to blame for talking about people and I wish I would have apologized before I left the game. The people I should have apologized to were most importantly Deli and Killa. One of these days I hope to accomplish that when I get a chance to log into vent. This forum isn't the proper place to get into it though.

Well sorry for writing a book here, even though I have left the game I really wish SWP success in whatever you guys decide to do, and I hope to still be a member of the community and to see all of you in "The next big thing"

[taallonn]

Laileb, we took down 25 man VoA tonight with all but 3 people from the guild. 1 was someone that left recently, and I hope will come back one day and the other 2 were friends of guildies, that are also welcome . So yeah we are having some success. Attempted 25 man Ony, but...no dice...but for our first attempt, it wasn't bad and I think a little bit different class makeup and we'll get it down next week.

As far as the other stuff....I'm not going to comment anymore I don't think as really there isn't any more to say as it's all been said quite a few times in this thread already. Some people are upset and rehashing the same stuff over and over in such a short period of time doesn't heal whatever wounds have been opened, but just makes them fester more.